(48)
Mr. Thurburn.--The Rent, Roll and taxes, could they both be checked by periodic auditing, balances once say every quarter or six months? The other items of the receipts come from different departments that have their own checks. Everything can be checked by balancing?
A.--It ought to be.
Q.--Has the Treasurer control over the other departments? Had you to visit them and see that the checks were carried out?
A.--No.
Q.--It was not your duty in that time?
A.--No. I imagine since the appointment of a permanent Treasurer things have been altered and the Treasurer has control over all departments.
Mr. Bird.--You had not time, I suppose?
A.--No, certainly not. You see I was Police Magistrate and Superintendent of the Fire Brigade also.
Mr. Thurburn.--A continuous check such as you talk of, as far as Crown Rent is concerned, would be a daily checking by another officer (apart from the man who keeps the book) of the counterfoils of Crown Rent with this Rent Roll book (produced)?
A.--Yes, it would.
The Chairman.--Alves did not always fill in the counterfoils.
A.--If you had a man specially I think it would constitute an efficient check.
Mr. Thurburn.--The only really efficient check is balancing?
A.--Balancing would have to be done of course as a test of the correctness of the previous audit.
The Chairman.--It was only when the accounts were balanced at the end of the year that you could tell the amount of the arrears?
A.--I am not prepared to say that.
Q.--How otherwise could you have seen?
A.--By the entries you could see what was paid and what was not.
Mr. Thurburn.--Simply looking through the book?
A.--Yes.
The Chairman.--That would not give the total amount?
A.--No, but it would show you how things stood.
Q.--If the book of 1888 had been balanced in January, 1889, you would have seen that Alves had short paid about $11,000?
A.--Yes, but 1887 was not balanced until 1889.
Mr. Thurburn.--That is just it. If the balance had been taken out every six months the defalcations would not be very large, if there were any.
The Chairman.--As far as we can ascertain the books of 1888, 1889, 1890 and 1891 were never balanced?
A.--No.
Q.--Whereas if the books had been balanced within a month of the expiry of the year the deficit would have been ascertained at once?
A.--Certainly.
The Committee then adjourned sine die.
(49)
FIFTH MEETING.
March 16th, 1893.
Present:--Mr. E. J. ACKROYD, Chairman.
Mr. J. THURBURN.
Mr. S. G. BIRD.
Mr. F. J. BADELEY, Secretary.
Honourable N. G. Mitchell-Innes, re-called.
The Chairman:--We wish to ask you a few questions, Mr. Mitchell-Innes, with regard to the system of checking employed in the Treasury. You said that now the Instructions say that you considered the checking of the Audit Office sufficient. You as head of a department are responsible for the checking in your own department. How long would it have taken to have a check made of the counterfoils with the Rent Roll every day?
A.--I could not say. I never tried to do it.
Q.--Do you know about how many payments would be made every day?
A.--No, I should think they vary very largely.
Q.--At the beginning of every six months of course they would come in pretty heavily?
A.--Naturally they would.
Mr. Thurburn.--Is it not possible to institute checks in the department, to have a separate officer to check off the counterfoils with the Rent Roll and see that there were no discrepancies?
A.--It would be perfectly possible.
Q.--It would not be very much work.
It might possibly for a week or two after the end of each half year, when, I suppose, the payments are large?
A.--Yes.
Q.--It might be pretty hard work for a few days at that period but most days it would only be a matter of a quarter of an hour?
A.--Yes. I might explain with reference to this checking of receipts that when I took up the position of Treasurer the new Financial Instructions were just coming out and of course at that time I was entirely ignorant of Treasurer's duties and I was in doubt as to what financial instructions ought to be like. The Auditor showed me some which he had gone through with Mr. Wodehouse and I was not able to make many corrections or suggestions at the time and they passed into their present shape with but there is a dispatch on record in which, after a great deal of correspondence as to what the respective duties were to be, I distinctly said that I declined to be responsible for the checking of the receipts generally in service unless the staff was increased.
The Chairman.--We are speaking now only of the receipts in the Department.
A.--Yes. I declined to be responsible for the checking of receipts generally.
691
(48)
Mr. Thurburn.--The Rent, Roll and taxes, could they both be checked by periodic auditing, balances once say every quarter or six months? The other items of the receipts come from different departments that have their own checks. Everything can be checked by balancing?
A.-It ought to be.
Q-Has the Treasurer control over the other departments? Had you to visit them and see that the checks were carried out?
A.-No.
Q-It was not your duty in that time?
A.-No. imagine since the appointment of a permanent Treasurer things have been altered and the Treasurer has control over all departments.
Mr. Bird.--You had not time, I suppose?
A-No certainly not. You see I was Police Magistrate and Superintendent of the Fire Brigade also.
Mr. Thurburn.-A continuous check such as you talk of, as far as Crown Rent is concerned, would be a daily checking by another officer (apart from the man who keeps the book) of the counterfoils of Crown Rent with this Rent Roll book (produced)?
A. Yes, it would,
The Chairman.Alves did not always fill in the counterfoils.
A.-If you had a man specially I think it would constitute an efficient check. Mr. Thurburn.--The only really efficient check is balancing?
A.-Balancing would have to be done of course as a test of the correctness of the previous audit.
year
The Chairman.It was only when the accounts were balanced at the end of the that you could tell the amount of the arrears?
A.-I am not prepared to say that.
Q.How otherwise could
you
have seen?
A.By the entries you could see what was paid and what was not.
Mr. Thurburu. Simply looking through the book? A.--Yes.
The Chairman.-That would not give the total amount?
A.-No, but it would show you how things stood.
Q-If the book of 1888 had been balanced in January, 1889, you would have
seen that Alves had short paid about $11,000?
A. Yes, but 1887 was not balanced until 1889.
Mr. Thurburn. That is just it. If the balance had been taken out every six months the defalcations would not be very large, if there were any.
The Chairman.As far as we can ascertain the books of 1888, 1889, 1890 and 1891 were never balanced?
A. No.
Q. Whereas if the books had been balanced within a month of the expiry of the year the deficit would have been ascertained at once?
A. Certainly.
The Committee then adjourned sine die.
( 49 )
FIFTH MEETING.
March 16th, 1893.
Present:-Mr. E. J. ACKROYD, Chairmmut.
Mr. J. THURBURN.
Mr. S. G. BIRD.
Mr. F. J. BADELEY, Secretary,
Honourable N. G. Mitchell-Innes, re-called.
you
The Chairman :-We wish to ask you a few questions, Mr. Mitchell-Innes, with regard to the system of checking employed in the Treasury. You said that
Now the Instructions say that considered the checking of the Audit Office sufficient. you as head of a department are responsible for the checking in your own department. How long would it have taken to have a check made of the counterfoils with the Rent Roll every day?
A.-I could not say. I never tried to do it.
Q- Do you know about how many payments would be made every day? A.-No, I should think they vary very largely.
Q-At the beginning of every six months of course they would come in pretty heavily?
A.-Naturally they would.
Mr. Thurburn.-Is it not possible to institute checks in the department, to have a separate officer to check off the counterfoils with the Rent Roll and see that there were no discrepancies ?
A.--It would be perfectly possible.
Q.—It would not be very much work.
It might possibly for a week or two after
the end of each half year, when, I suppose, the payments are large ?
A.--Yes.
Q-It might be pretty hard work for a few days at that period but most days it would only be a matter of a quarter of an hour?
A. Yes. I might explain with reference to this checking of receipts that when I took up the position of Treasurer the new Financial Instructions were just coming out and of course at that time I was entirely ignorant of Treasurer's duties and I was in doubt as to what financial instructions ought to be like. The Auditor showed me some which he had gone through with Mr. Wodehouse and I was not able to make many corrections or suggestions at the time and they passed into their present shape with But there is a dispatch ou record in which, after a great very little alteration from me. deal of correspondence as to what the respective duties were to be, I distinctly said that I declined to be responsible for the checking of the receipts generally in service unless the staff was increased.
The Chairman. We are speaking now only of the receipts in the Department. A. Yes. I declined to be responsible for the checking of receipts generally.
691
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